This week Amanda Bird interviews Marina Abrams about the process and challenges of creating, funding, and self-publishing a series of bilingual picture books.

by Amanda Bird

To say Marina Abrams self-published Orange and Blue, the World of Barzu is to underrepresent the multifaceted processes behind this substantial picture book. At its heart is a sixty-three-page story about a Tajik boy and his grandmother. Back matter includes twenty-five pages of learning activities, ethnographic material, historical information, recipes, maps, charts, and more. 

Marina is, in fact, conceptual designer, researcher, artistic director, co-illustrator, production manager, publisher, logistical coordinator, and one-woman shipping department of this planned four-part series, each volume of which appears in both an English and a Russian edition. 

Marina was born into an ethnically Russian family in Kazakhstan. When she was ten, they moved to Almaty, where she attended university. She subsequently worked in international security for fifteen years, during which time she earned a master’s in the U.S., taught public policy in Tajikistan, and spent several years in Moscow. 

After becoming a mother, the desire to pass on her heritage sparked the idea that was eventually realized with the 2017 publication of Orange and Blue. The second book, The Riddle of the Talking Tapestry, is in the final stages of editing and projected for printing in January 2024. Our wide-ranging conversation explored her process as well the rewards and challenges of self-publishing.

Amanda Bird: What factors led to your decision to self-publish? Did you consider publishing through traditional channels?

Marina Abrams: I did. I sent several proposals to publishing houses in Russia and Kazakhstan. I also reached out to some publishers here but was unsuccessful. At that time, I thought I would give myself a year, and then I would go back to international policy. I didn’t have five years to wait for a decision from a publishing house. So I decided to crowdfund. I thought, if this project is of any value to anybody, then I will publish it myself. I have a master’s degree, and I will figure it out.  

What expenses did you calculate into the costs for your fundraising? 

I had to find out how much the actual printing would cost, how much I would need to pay the person who puts together the electronic file for printing, the editor, all the logistics, taxes. And the crowdfunding websites take their own percentage. You prepare an Excel sheet and you prepare your minimum and your maximum. Kickstarter is very strict [about meeting your goal]. Other platforms are more flexible.

You used Kickstarter for the first two books. Would you use it again? 

I find it very effective. I see the logic behind it. Either you get demand for your product or you don’t. It’s a lot of marketing work, but it pays off. 

But after my second book I’m not going to do it again in this way. When I decided to run the crowdfunding for the second book I was at this stage where I didn’t feel enough initiative to move forward. My friend and coeditor said, “Why don’t you do a Kickstarter campaign, and you will see how many people want this next book? That will give you inspiration.” 

I understand you handle fulfillment yourself.

Yes, that really worked, and actually even now that’s the only thing that keeps moving me forward, because I owe this book to my sponsors. I can’t just put it aside. 

Even with books I’m selling on Amazon, it’s me who takes the book, packs it, and takes it to the post office, and ships it. Amazon takes about twenty percent. That’s why I always encourage people to get it directly from me, if they want to save money. 

I know my audience very well, because I do all the stages myself. I know my readers, their profiles, I’m very connected to them. 

Can you talk about other logistical hurdles you had to overcome? 

In the beginning I felt under pressure to meet my own deadlines. I grabbed at the first offers and lost a lot of money. Now I see that you really need to shop around for prices. And really think about the logistical part. How much does it cost to deliver the product to you? How much time will it take to deliver the product to readers? Who will do all the logistics? Where will you store the books? Or will you ship them right away to your house? 

With the second book, every week I changed my mind about where to print. Right now I have 700 books stuck in Kiev, in Ukraine. It’s expensive to ship them, but I don’t have any other way to get them. That adds to the price of the books, unfortunately. 

This boring stuff has nothing artistic about it. But in the end, it affects your artistic activities. You get stuck in these financial issues, so you don’t have the money and time and creative resources to create another product. 

That is also part of why my second book is coming much later than I thought. I thought, ok, after the first book, I know everything. And then, boom, we had quarantine. I got sick, the artist got sick, everybody was depressed. Nobody wanted to do anything. And then the war started. It all emotionally affects the creative person. You have to overcome these creative hurdles somehow. 

On your website you mention that you have a presentation about your process. Is that something individuals can access, or do you give it to groups? 

I used to do a twice-a-year webinar on crowdfunding, sharing my experience. People paid for that webinar, and I used it to fund my project a little bit. I also taught teenagers at a school in Boston. Now it’s on demand. 

How will you fund the next books? 

A lot of the funding comes from our family budget. I crowdfunded more for printing purposes. I funded the illustration work myself. Any money I get from selling the books I spend on the creation of more books. I have more expenses than income. 

But at the same time, I have freedom to create the project in the way I want it. I wasn’t successful in getting sponsorship or grants from big organizations or foundations. Parents who want this book for their children, they are the funders. 

I read that you were inspired to engage the illustrator for Orange and Blue when your husband brought home mugs by the artist, who had been your neighbor in Tajikistan. How did you connect with Gulya Gromova, the illustrator for the second book, The Riddle of the Talking Tapestry? 

Somebody told me about Gulya Gromova while I was working on the first book. She did a draft illustration for me. I also did a call for other applicants, and I got sixteen. But Gulya’s work proved to be the best for this project.

I’m very hard to work with. Everything has to reflect the real world. We worked with (Persian) miniatures; I wrote to experts on traditional costumes. I asked them, “Does this look more or less realistic?” We had to redo several illustrations—remove the rings from the fingers, or change the color of the headpieces—because the experts told us, this is not how it used to be. 

The artists have to understand that it’s not because I’m evil—well, maybe I am—but because text and illustrations should go together, and they serve the ultimate mission of this project. Through the illustrations we introduce children to architecture, to textiles, to traditions of Central Asia. 

Before we started working together, we had a long conversation, and I explained the idea, the mission, how we’d work. When we signed the contract, each illustration included a very detailed description.

When the illustrator finished all the illustrations I actually had to come up with more text. This one illustration was so beautiful I didn’t want it to be squished into one double-page spread, so I made it two double-page spreads and added more text. It provided more information to children, but to write that page, I had to do additional research. 

Tell me what it’s like working with your husband, Joshua Abrams, as the translator.

I send Joshua the text, and while he’s translating it from Russian to English, he gives me feedback. That’s very valuable, because sometimes we writers think we are very clear, but also because I’m from the region I have more context. My husband has spent twenty years in the region, but still he is able to tell me, “A foreigner would not understand this. You need to explain it a little more, or maybe let’s put it in the glossary.” 

When the first draft is ready, we sit together and go through it paragraph by paragraph. I’m not a native speaker, but I can feel and sense. We look for synonyms, we look at structures, or I say, “Here the meaning is a little different.” Then he rewrites it. 

With the second book, everything seemed good to me. But he said, “It still sounds a little ‘Russ-glish.’ I need to make it sound the way an American would say it.”

I told him, “Be careful, I don’t want it to sound harsh.” In Central Asia people are more polite. The way boys talk to their grandmothers is different—more respectful. The formal “you” is different; in Tajik they say shumo. Even husbands and wives say shumo to each other, which is more respectful than just “you.” 

Can you tell us a detail you enjoy about The Riddle of the Talking Tapestry? 

I have a table with many proverbs and sayings about melons from all five Central Asian republics and in different languages. The culture of growing melons has been there for thousands of years and has become part of the language. I’m actually very proud of it, because you won’t find anything like that in any other source. 

Are you going to take a break before starting on the third book? 

I don’t think so. I’m always thinking – and reading books about nomads, about different things, about historical stuff. I never know what will click for me.

Thank you for sharing your experiences with us!

Amanda Bird is a freelance writer and editor living outside Eugene, Oregon, with her husband, teen daughter, and various international housemates. Her work in progress is a historical novel set in 1908 Tajikistan.

Marina Abrams was born and raised in Kazakhstan, lived in Tajikistan and Russia, and has traveled extensively around the Eurasian region. She is an international policy professional with twenty years of experience in multi-disciplinary projects. She holds a B.A. in Translation-Interpretation from the Abylaikhan Kazakh State University of International Relations and World Languages and an M.A. in International Policy Studies from the Middlebury Institute of International Studies at Monterey. She lives in Maryland with her husband and two children.